New Threads Only:  Add to Google Reader or Homepage
New Threads & Replies:  Add to Google Reader or Homepage
Forums are for serious investors only. GuruFocus Forum Rules.

Forum List » Guru News and Commentaries
Guru News, Stock picks and commentaries
New Topic Search
Goto Thread: PreviousNext
Goto: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Goto Page:  Previous123Next
Current Page:2 of 3
Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: paulwitt (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2013 01:11PM


@ Vgm

That was some good TV! It was a little harsh though, with one of them using a bad word..... :)





Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: LwC (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2013 03:31PM

Bill Ackman vs. Carl Icahn

It started with a "forgettable" deal in 2004, and became a famous feud that spanned seven years and racked up millions in dollars in lawyer fees between two activist investors.

In 2003, when Ackman's former investment firm was in trouble and he was being investigated by the SEC, he cold-called Icahn and asked him to buy his shares of Hallwood Realty, a real estate company trading for about $60, but Ackman said was worth $140. Icahn agreed to buy the shares for $80, with a deal that he would split the profit with Ackman if he sold the shares within 3 years. When Hallwood merged with another company for $137/share in 2004, Ackman called Icahn for his share of the profit. Well, Icahn reasoned that he didn't sell the shares in the merger even though he did not own them anymore.

A legal battle ensued with poisonous words, where Ackman called Icahn a "shakedown artist" whose word was "useless" and also convinced another investor to refuse Icahn's money.

Ackman ultimately won the fight, and Icahn paid out $9 million.

Source: DealBook

Read more: [www.businessinsider.com]




Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: vgm (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2013 03:58PM

LwC - old news.



Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: superguru (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2013 03:58PM

Few years Marty Whitman also publicly disagreed with Ackman on one short. Ackman won that round.



Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re: Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don't like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: LwC (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2013 04:32PM

@vgm, thank you for your astute observation. But my point is that this is personal between Icahn and Ackman, especially with Icahn who had to pay up. So it may not be old news for Icahn who might still be nursing a grudge, a point that I'm confident most people get.

But of course with you, any point is pointless when it comes to me. So why are you still wasting your valuable time unnecessarily reading and responding to my posts?

Oh yeah, just to be clear that question is intended to be rhetorical, so please feel free to not respond. (I hope that this is not so "unnecessarily verbose" that you are unable to understand it.)

@superguru, that might have been Ackman's very public MBIA short. Whitman was, and maybe still is, heavily exposed to MBIA bonds.




Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: vgm (IP Logged)
Date: January 26, 2013 04:56AM

LwC - actually I did not at all realize that you were the perpetrator of the "unnecessarily verbose". Nothing personal, to use the phrase du jour.

To be brief (!) the issue is that you took one piece from a complex jigsaw and tried to imply it was the whole. Rather, every piece needs to be placed and viewed in context. So here I'd suggest the other extreme of 'unnecessarily simplistic' would apply. Extremes betray an unsophisticated mind at work.

"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Albert Einstein



Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: aldandrea@gmail.com (IP Logged)
Date: January 26, 2013 02:19PM

In my opinion, Carl Icahn sounds like the bully in the schoolyard who is furious that Ackman sued him and won. I bet there aren't many people who stand up to King Carl and win. It also sounds like Icahn tells everyone that he's a guy who you can trust to do business on a handshake, just before he screws you. Would you do business with King Carl -- one of the world's most notorious corporate raiders -- on a handshake? I sure wouldn't.

In the video, Icahn comes across as a petulant bully with the news anchor too. He's clearly someone who used to having his way and he's indignant and outraged at being put on the spot or having his methods or reputation questioned.

Sounds like King Carl has a lot of the makings of a sociopath, no? That would fit with his reputation too. No doubt, he wraps himself in a bunch of charity, too, so he can tell you what a good guy he is. Not. I don't have much of an opinion about Ackman.



Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re: Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: shb600 (IP Logged)
Date: January 27, 2013 10:17AM

VGM Ackman has "too little on intellectual rigor and analysis?" According to a CNBC reporter Friday Ackman is very detail oriented vs. Icahn being well-known for not digging into the details or reading contracts and it was speculated that's why he prevailed in the court case(hard to believe Icahn's team of lawyers got "fooled" by a 35 year-old "nobody" though). Ackman makes a few stock presentations a year at conferences. They are some of the most detailed thoroughly researched I've ever seen and most are on the long-side. Did you even look at the 300+ slides that he presented on HLF? You may disagree on his interpretation, but to say he isn't intellectual or rigorous in his analysis is ridiculous. Wall Street analysts that sat through the presentation seemed to complain that it was too detailed and went on too long 3+ hours. Wall street is full of company hyping CEOs, analysts, and fund managers on the long-side. The short side is not some nefarious scheme if it is thoughtful and well-researched, like Ackman, Einhorn, Chanos and others do. As Chanos says shorts are like financial detectives. Btw HLF is Ackman's one publicly announced short that I'm aware of since MBI which started over 10 years ago.



Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: vgm (IP Logged)
Date: January 27, 2013 11:17AM

Shb600,

1. You're a fool to believe what you hear from the talking heads on CNBC. That way lies financial ruin.

2. Long doesn't in any way represent rigor. Just the opposite in the case of investing. Read Dan Loeb's rebuttal. It's short, rigorous and exactly to the point. Loeb has the intellect to encapsulate his case in a few paragraphs. As Munger puts it, 'ideas that need detailed analysis should go on the too-hard pile...good ideas jump off the page'.

3. I admire rigorous short-sellers. They are "the policemen of the financial markets" to quote Seth Klarman. Their analysis has to be top notch, since they stand to lose big. Here we agree. Chanos is terrific. He said he's looked at HLF. Let's see if he's actually short. But even someone of the caliber of Chanos can get hurt. He was burned quite recently with Autonomy, when foolish HPQ bought it for a fortune, and he was (correctly) short.

4. If an idea is still working itself out after 10 years it insn't much of an idea. Opportunity cost!



Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Re Carl Icahn on Bloomberg TV - I don t like or respect Bill Ackman
Posted by: shb600 (IP Logged)
Date: January 27, 2013 01:31PM

VGM,
In response point by point
1. What I said "According to a CNBC reporter Friday Ackman is very detail oriented vs. Icahn being well-known for not digging into the details or reading contracts and it was speculated that's why he prevailed in the court case(hard to believe Icahn's team of lawyers got "fooled" by a 35 year-old "nobody" though)." The reporter was quoting a source who used to work for Icahn. This has no investing implications it pertains to the court case between Icahn and Ackman from 10 years ago. Please explain how that could lead anyone to financial ruin.
2. Loeb is a very opportunistic investor read his past investor letters and see that what he touts one month many times he's out of the next. Munger is talking about buying a company's stock. Shorts and frauds are inherently complicated because it involves deception. The company will not lay out the case as to why it should be shorted. The short-seller will have to dig beyond the reported numbers and get at what is truly going on. Chanos short of Enron didn't "jump" off the page at him or the rest of Wall Street.
3. Reading between the lines of Chanos interview I'd guess he's short. I wonder where you think Ackman is wrong. Is the product not egregiously over-priced, are 90%+ of distributors not being taken advantage of, is the CEO not making incorrect statements of fact on TV that he later has to retract, are they not changing the way they report certain metrics, did the Netherlands not rule they were a pyramid scheme, did they continually have to go to new countries to enlist more distributors to keep their numbers from declining? The list goes on and on with the problems.
4. By my calculation MBI took about 6 years to go from 60 to 3. If an investor were long to make up for that loss he needs a stock to go up about 20 times. MBI was a good stock to avoid. Also, I believe Ackman was long Credit default swaps and made several times his money. If you are a hedge fund are you not expected to have some hedges, like shorts otherwise what is the point of being a hedge fund just be a mutual fund



Guru Discussed: Carl Icahn: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Bill Ackman: Current Portfolio, Stock Picks
Stocks Discussed: HLF,
Rate this post:

Rating: 0.0/5 (0 votes)



Goto Page:  Previous123Next
Current Page:2 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Please Login if you have an account or Create a Free Account if you don't
Get WordPress Plugins for easy affiliate links on Stock Tickers and Guru Names | Earn affiliate commissions by embedding GuruFocus Charts
GuruFocus Affiliate Program: Earn up to $400 per referral. ( Learn More)
Free 7-day Trial
FEEDBACK
Hide