The Score Board of Gurus

These are the performance numbers for the stocks Gurus bought and the 5-year, 10-year performance numbers of their flagship funds. To be more objective, we also display the annualized performance numbers over complete market cycles and the return of rolling 5-year periods. Warren Buffett uses the annual returns of rolling 5-year period to measure his own performances. Click here.

ScoreboardStock Picks - 6 MonthsStock Picks - 12 MonthsPerformancesTurnover (%)
Name # of Stocks Bought The Average Gain* (%) # of Stocks Bought Average Return* (%) 5-year (%) 10-year (%) Since Inception (%) Period Tracked Fund tracked (Q/Q)
Glenn Greenberg 1220.082121.1915
Vanguard Health Care Fund 3311.127419.6618.710.917.21985 - 2013Vanguard Healthcare Fund7
Bill Gates 1118-3.137
Seth Klarman 2110.293929.1513.112.81992 - 2001Baupost Fund19
Julian Robertson 419.81068.0753
Robert Bruce 98.67153.7317.71212.51984 - 2013Bruce Fund3
Jeff Ubben 157.932312.7812
Chuck Akre 177.534110.54211.212.71989 - 2011Akre Capital Private Asset Man12
Lou Simpson 177.413212.3410
Tom Gayner 447.27927.050.769.81996 - 2011Markel Corp. Equity Portfolio3
Bill Ackman 571319.856.22008 - 2010Pershing Square LP fund2
Ken Heebner 675.7313611.18.48.513.81998 - 2013CGM Focus Fund32
Lee Ainslie 545.6911710.2611.22010 - 2010Maverick Fund28
Robert Olstein 905.591694.5919.15.410.91996 - 2013Olstein All Cap Value Fund14
Frank Sands 195.5344-2.9531.411.712.31992 - 2013Select Growth Portfolio4
David Abrams 155.4216.8626
Whitney Tilson 85.382117.332010 - 2011T2 Hedge Fund1
Prem Watsa 105.326-3.356.8822.41986 - 2012Fairfax Per Share Book Value14
Private Capital 245.294611.2820.16.315.37
Mario Cibelli 225.27506.510
Andreas Halvorsen 824.981646.6622.2637
John Griffin 224.41545.445
Ian Cumming 3446.5713.318.51980 - 2011Leucadia Corp. Book Value53
Steve Mandel 533.981175.0920
Mason Hawkins 223.23391.7722.1612.51988 - 2013Longleaf Partners Fund12
Mario Gabelli 3312.96622519.79.812.61987 - 2013Asset Fund Class AAA6
Daniel Loeb 422.91019.0122.814.720.41995 - 2013Master Fund26
Joel Greenblatt 9662.8120434.7918.62011 - 2013U.S. Value 1000 Fund45
Dodge & Cox 782.551093.5819.6813.61980 - 2013Dodge & Cox Stock FUND3
Ken Fisher 2002.093381.3313.557.21997 - 2013Purisima Total Return (PURIX)2
Donald Yacktman 131.92265.0822.410.210.91993 - 2013The Yacktman Fund1
David Swensen 71.86161.253
Irving Kahn 71.43292.91
Richard Perry 241.3341-2.411.62008 - 2010Perry Capital16
Scott Black 441.23912.9611
Martin Whitman 70.8618-8.8914.66.861991 - 2013Third Avenue Value Fund8
Bill Nygren 530.75742.5122.48.812.31992 - 2013Oakmark Fund14
Richard Pzena 820.351614.146
John Paulson 370.2773-2.374.17.911.71994 - 2011Advantage Fund19
Meridian Funds 000017.38.614.61995 - 2013Meridian Value Fund13
Mark Hillman 0072.2919.78.110.81999 - 2012Focused Advantage Equity Compo11
T Boone Pickens 000036
Charlie Munger 00000
Ray Dalio 367-0.127373.055
Warren Buffett 14-0.29274.4813.910.319.31980 - 2012Berkshire Hathaway Book Value2
PRIMECAP Management 62-0.351643.7219.610.313.71985 - 2013Vanguard Primcap Fund2
David Tepper 27-0.59816.8123.330.529.21993 - 2010Appaloosa Investment LP I11
Jean-Marie Eveillard 141-0.94346-3.3814.710.9141980 - 2013First Eagle Global Fund10
John Rogers 88-1.082471.57268.211.81987 - 2013Ariel Fund8
HOTCHKIS & WILEY 92-1.12172.5920.7610.21988 - 2013Large Cap Value Fund10
Mohnish Pabrai 2-1.5530
Ruane Cunniff 47-1.57670.1619.48.914.51980 - 2013Sequoia Fund2
Robert Karr 8-1.63188.3322.198
Yacktman Focused Fund 9-1.78240.9222.410.59.71997 - 2013Yacktman Focused Fund2
Yacktman Fund 6-1.83211.4822.410.210.61992 - 2013Yacktman Fund1
John Hussman 109-22373.11-3.5-0.93.82000 - 2013Hussman Strategic Growth Fund24
Brian Rogers 13-2.15310.8116.97.6111986 - 2013T. Rowe Price Equity Income Fu3
Michael Price 41-2.2785-1.210
James Barrow 47-2.361020.0721.87.87.11997 - 2013Vanguard Selected Value Fund4
Third Avenue Management 56-2.41121-5.6914.66.761991 - 2013Third Avenue Value Fund12
Mariko Gordon 42-2.74112-4.2924.112.613.81995 - 2012Small-Cap Composite - Daruma10
Ron Baron 145-3.29353-3.9222.312.413.31992 - 2013Baron Partners Fund4
Richard Snow 109-3.34200-4.920.27.514.41992 - 2012All Cap Equity Composite10
David Dreman 295-3.55655-0.91-4.22004 - 2011Large Cap Fund ¨C Institution4
John Burbank 281-3.77497-2.7719
Chris Davis 65-3.85110-0.7418.15.411.41992 - 2013Davis Financial Fund8
David Winters 5-4.88-2.515.27.62006 - 2013Wintergreen Fund4
David Einhorn 29-5.66620.9513.99.62004 - 2013Greenlight Re16
Wallace Weitz 33-5.9467-2.8821.47.512.81984 - 2013Weitz Partners Fund8
George Soros 339-6.37656-2.1720
Carl Icahn 12-6.4224-1.8826.616.17
Bruce Berkowitz 17-6.8849-28.3516.81112.82000 - 2013Fairholme Fund1
Tweedy Browne 1-72-614.46.45.41994 - 2013Tweedy Browne Value Fund1
Ronald Muhlenkamp 21-7.3860-1.75154.210.31989 - 2013Muhlenkamp  Fund6
Leon Cooperman 70-7.51140-7.3312
Arnold Schneider 47-7.5590-4.2122.67.614.41999 - 2013Schneider Small Cap Value Fund5
John Keeley 99-7.91235-1.818.810.98.41994 - 2013Small Cap Value Fund5
Charles Brandes 81-8.07168-6.5520.42.77.61993 - 2013U. S. Value Equity6
NWQ Managers 104-8.54196-4.1716.57.97.61997 - 2013Nuveen Multi-Manager Large-Cap11
Wilbur Ross 1-126-9.670
FPA Capital Fund 22-14.2734-11.21218.814.61984 - 2013FPA Capital Fund8
Arnold Van Den Berg 42-17.7694-19.4413.85.211.71980 - 2013CM Value I Composite12
Donald Smith 32-17.8849-13.945
Edward Lampert 3-35.336-260
*The performance data are the average performances of the stocks Gurus purchased. They are not weighted, and do not include the stocks they kept unchanged in number of shares owned. The data are different from the performances of their complete portfolios
**Portfolio Performances are calculated based on the equity holding as of the latest reported quarterly portfolio, assuming no buys/sells since. ***Turnover is defined as the impact to portfolio caused by all the purchases. This is a Quarter-to-Quarter number

A Better Way to Measure Performances

We believe that the performance over fixed time periods, like the latest 3-year, 5-year and 10-year, might be misleading since a single bad year performance would ruin all. Therefore, we believe the best way to measure funds’ performance is to check the performance number over complete market cycles.

According to the annual returns of S&P 500 from 1999 to 2012, we think market peaks appeared at 1999, 2007 and 2012, while market troughs appear at 2002 and 2008. Based on this, we research all the funds’ performance from peak to peak (1999 to 2007, 2007 to 2012, and 1999 to 2012) years and trough to trough years (2002 to 2008).

The results are as follows (we ignore the funds which lack at least two years of data in a complete economic cycle):

Table 1: Peak to Peak_1999-2007 Annual Return
Guru Name Return Fund Type
David Tepper 30.66% h
Ken Heebner 28.90% m
Daniel Loeb 21.30% h
Arnold Schneider 19.78% m
Mawer New Canada Fund 19.25% f
Robert Bruce 18.74% m
John Buckingham 17.68% m
John Paulson 17.31% h
Bruce Berkowitz 17.11% m
Fairholme Fund 17.11% f
Jean-Marie Eveillard 16.49% m
Meridian Funds 15.80% m
Signature Select Canadian Fund 15.59% f
Murray Stahl 15.29% m
Arnold Van Den Berg 14.54% f
Mark Hillman 14.43% m
Chuck Royce 13.92% m
Chuck Akre 13.28% m
John Keeley 13.22% m
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 13.03% f
Westport Asset Management 12.91% m
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 12.62% f
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 12.51% f
Richard Snow 12.50% m
Manning & Napier Advisors, Inc 12.39% h
Robert Rodriguez 12.15% f
Dodge & Cox 12.12% m
Edward Owens 11.33% f
Martin Whitman 11.23% f
Third Avenue Management 11.23% m
Ron Baron 10.96% m
Steven Romick 10.90% f
Ian Cumming 10.77% i
Robert Olstein 10.60% m
Chou RRSP Fund 10.43% f
John Hussman 10.41% m
Bill Frels 10.14% m
Mario Gabelli 9.86% m
Ronald Muhlenkamp 9.62% m
Tom Gayner 9.59% i
Mason Hawkins 9.47% m
Tom Russo 9.44% h
John Rogers 9.41% m
Donald Yacktman 9.00% m
PRIMECAP Management 8.80% m
Francis Chou 8.69% m
Warren Buffett 8.39% i
Jeff Auxier 8.32% m
Prem Watsa 8.09% i
HOTCHKIS & WILEY 8.05% m
Brian Rogers 7.56% f
Ken Fisher 7.51% m
Wallace Weitz 7.50% m
David Rolfe 7.45% m
NWQ Managers 6.81% m
Chris Davis 6.73% m
Charles Brandes 6.50% m
Jeremy Grantham 6.29% m
James Barrow 6.05% m
Ruane Cunniff 5.88% m
RS Investment Management 5.65% m
Bill Nygren 5.33% f
Tweedy Browne 4.61% m
S&P 500 3.78%
 
Table 2: Peak to Peak_2007-2012 Annual Return
Guru Name Return Fund Type
Prem Watsa 19.73% i
David Rolfe 9.21% m
Daniel Loeb 8.84% h
Donald Yacktman 8.61% m
Warren Buffett 8.43% i
Frank Sands 8.28% m
Mawer New Canada Fund 7.98% f
Zeke Ashton 7.90% h
Chuck Royce 7.05% m
Ian Cumming 6.99% i
Jean-Marie Eveillard 6.85% m
Westport Asset Management 6.49% m
Ruane Cunniff 6.12% m
Edward Owens 5.80% f
David Einhorn 5.76% h
Steven Romick 5.61% f
Robert Rodriguez 5.43% f
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 4.81% f
Bill Frels 4.80% m
Robert Bruce 4.58% m
Mario Gabelli 4.51% m
Bill Nygren 4.46% f
PRIMECAP Management 4.40% m
David Winters 4.25% m
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 4.23% f
John Paulson 4.11% h
Bruce Berkowitz 3.99% m
Fairholme Fund 3.99% f
Jeff Auxier 3.90% m
Tom Russo 3.77% h
James Barrow 3.33% m
Tweedy Browne 3.33% m
Meridian Funds 3.17% m
RS Investment Management 3.05% m
Diamond Hill Capital 2.91% m
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 2.75% f
Wallace Weitz 2.51% m
S&P 500 2.21%
John Keeley 2.03% m
Chuck Akre 2.02% m
Manning & Napier Advisors, Inc 1.89% h
Brian Rogers 1.87% f
John Rogers 1.86% m
Ron Baron 1.58% m
Jeremy Grantham 1.30% m
NWQ Managers 1.23% m
Signature Select Canadian Fund 1.05% f
John Buckingham 0.84% m
Tom Gayner 0.71% i
Chou RRSP Fund 0.69% f
Francis Chou 0.58% m
Arnold Van Den Berg 0.29% f
Ken Heebner 0.23% m
Mason Hawkins 0.14% m
Dodge & Cox -0.17% m
Ken Fisher -0.31% m
Richard Snow -0.54% m
Mark Hillman -0.72% m
Martin Whitman -0.73% f
Third Avenue Management -0.77% m
Robert Olstein -0.80% m
Arnold Schneider -1.22% m
Murray Stahl -1.45% m
Chris Davis -1.76% m
HOTCHKIS & WILEY -2.29% m
John Hussman -2.64% m
Ronald Muhlenkamp -3.54% m
Charles Brandes -5.92% m
 
Table 3: Peak to Peak_1999-2012 Annual Return
Guru Name Return Fund Type
Daniel Loeb 16.06% h
Mawer New Canada Fund 14.46% f
Robert Bruce 14.27% m
Arnold Schneider 13.22% m
Ken Heebner 13.00% m
Jean-Marie Eveillard 12.73% m
Bruce Berkowitz 11.21% m
John Buckingham 11.11% m
Chuck Royce 11.01% m
Meridian Funds 10.78% m
Fairholme Fund 10.37% f
Robert Rodriguez 10.15% f
Westport Asset Management 10.05% m
Signature Select Canadian Fund 10.02% f
John Paulson 9.85% h
Arnold Van Den Berg 9.69% f
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 9.68% f
Prem Watsa 9.46% i
Edward Owens 9.43% f
Chuck Akre 9.32% m
Donald Yacktman 9.24% m
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 9.21% f
Mark Hillman 8.91% m
Steven Romick 8.89% f
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 8.78% f
John Keeley 8.70% m
Manning & Napier Advisors, Inc 8.38% h
Warren Buffett 8.22% i
Bill Frels 8.20% m
Richard Snow 7.75% m
David Rolfe 7.67% m
Chou RRSP Fund 7.65% f
Dodge & Cox 7.54% m
Ian Cumming 7.41% i
Mario Gabelli 7.40% m
Tom Russo 7.35% h
Murray Stahl 6.95% m
John Rogers 6.92% m
Tom Gayner 6.87% i
Ron Baron 6.81% m
PRIMECAP Management 6.71% m
Robert Olstein 6.59% m
Francis Chou 6.58% m
Wallace Weitz 6.55% m
Jeff Auxier 6.45% m
Martin Whitman 6.32% f
Third Avenue Management 6.30% m
Mason Hawkins 6.09% m
Ruane Cunniff 5.81% m
Bill Nygren 5.62% f
Brian Rogers 5.39% f
James Barrow 5.33% m
RS Investment Management 5.23% m
Ronald Muhlenkamp 5.22% m
HOTCHKIS & WILEY 4.90% m
Jeremy Grantham 4.76% m
John Hussman 4.65% m
NWQ Managers 4.38% m
Tweedy Browne 4.35% m
Chris Davis 3.89% m
Ken Fisher 3.75% m
S&P 500 2.97%
Charles Brandes 2.65% m
 
Table 4: Trough to Trough_2002-2008 Annual Return
Guru Name Return Fund Type
David Tepper 17.16% h
John Paulson 15.90% h
Robert Bruce 14.02% m
Prem Watsa 13.00% i
Jean-Marie Eveillard 11.61% m
Ken Heebner 10.92% m
Mawer New Canada Fund 10.20% f
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 10.15% f
Daniel Loeb 9.37% h
Warren Buffett 9.26% i
Chuck Royce 7.12% m
Bruce Berkowitz 6.93% m
Fairholme Fund 6.93% f
Chuck Akre 6.79% m
Ian Cumming 6.51% i
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 6.40% f
Diamond Hill Capital 6.29% m
Steven Romick 6.21% f
John Hussman 6.02% m
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 5.69% f
Signature Select Canadian Fund 5.45% f
John Keeley 5.37% m
Donald Yacktman 5.20% m
Sarah Ketterer 4.98% m
Tom Russo 4.51% h
Edward Owens 4.26% f
Arnold Schneider 4.04% m
Ron Baron 3.81% m
Westport Asset Management 3.34% m
Francis Chou 3.33% m
Jeff Auxier 2.88% m
Murray Stahl 2.69% m
Meridian Funds 2.68% m
Robert Rodriguez 2.60% f
Bill Frels 2.41% m
Mario Gabelli 2.21% m
Martin Whitman 2.04% f
Third Avenue Management 2.04% m
Mark Hillman 1.95% m
Tom Gayner 1.83% i
PRIMECAP Management 1.75% m
Chou RRSP Fund 1.45% f
Ruane Cunniff 1.40% m
John Buckingham 1.30% m
Arnold Van Den Berg 1.12% f
Manning & Napier Advisors, Inc 0.63% h
Dodge & Cox 0.54% m
Brian Rogers 0.53% f
Tweedy Browne -0.04% m
Richard Snow -0.50% m
NWQ Managers -0.59% m
James Barrow -0.65% m
Jeremy Grantham -0.83% m
HOTCHKIS & WILEY -1.08% m
Ken Fisher -1.28% m
David Rolfe -1.35% m
Bill Nygren -1.37% f
S&P 500 -1.38%
Ronald Muhlenkamp -1.61% m
RS Investment Management -1.92% m
John Rogers -2.48% m
Chris Davis -2.78% m
Mason Hawkins -2.79% m
Wallace Weitz -2.95% m
Robert Olstein -3.50% m
Frank Sands -4.49% m
Charles Brandes -7.56% m

In Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRK.A)(BRK.B)’s annual report of 2012, Warren Buffett mentioned this methodology. We first calculate the five-year rolling annualized returns for each fund from their inception date to today, then compare them with five-year rolling annualized returns of the S&P 500, and finally we calculate the percentage of years when each fund outperformed the market. We ignore those funds which had less than eight five-year rolling returns from 1980 or their inception date, whichever comes first, to 2012.

The results are as follows:

Table 5: Percentage of Years When Guru Outperformed the Market (Five-Year Rolling Basis)
Guru Name Percentage Number of Data
Warren Buffett 100.00% 29
Daniel Loeb 100.00% 14
Westport Asset Management 100.00% 11
Diamond Hill Capital 100.00% 8
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 100.00% 11
Edward Owens 95.83% 24
Meridian Funds 92.86% 14
David Tepper 92.86% 14
Tom Gayner 91.67% 12
Bruce Berkowitz 88.89% 9
Jeff Auxier 88.89% 9
Fairholme Fund 88.89% 9
Prem Watsa 86.36% 22
Ruane Cunniff 86.21% 29
Chuck Akre 84.21% 19
NWQ Managers 83.33% 12
Tom Russo 83.33% 24
PRIMECAP Management 83.33% 24
Ken Heebner 81.82% 11
Manning & Napier Advisors Inc. 80.00% 10
Signature Select Canadian Fund 80.00% 10
Ian Cumming 78.57% 28
John Paulson 78.57% 14
Robert Rodriguez 76.00% 25
Ken Fisher 75.00% 12
Frank Sands 75.00% 8
David Rolfe 75.00% 16
Mawer New Canada Fund 75.00% 20
Steven Romick 73.33% 15
Mario Gabelli 72.73% 22
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 71.43% 14
Ron Baron 70.59% 17
Chuck Royce 70.59% 17
Murray Stahl 69.23% 13
James Barrow 66.67% 12
Jean-Marie Eveillard 65.52% 29
Bill Frels 65.52% 29
Bill Nygren 64.71% 17
Richard Snow 64.71% 17
Chris Davis 64.71% 17
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 64.71% 17
Tweedy Browne 64.29% 14
Wallace Weitz 64.00% 25
Donald Yacktman 62.50% 16
RS Investment Management 61.54% 13
Brian Rogers 60.87% 23
Ronald Muhlenkamp 60.00% 20
John Keeley 60.00% 15
Arnold Schneider 60.00% 10
Mark Hillman 60.00% 10
Francis Chou 59.09% 22
Dodge & Cox 58.62% 29
Mason Hawkins 57.14% 21
John Hussman 55.56% 9
Robert Olstein 53.85% 13
John Buckingham 50.00% 10
Robert Bruce 48.00% 25
John Rogers 45.45% 22
Martin Whitman 44.44% 18
Third Avenue Management 44.44% 18
Jeremy Grantham 44.44% 9
Arnold Van Den Berg 41.38% 29
Charles Brandes 37.50% 16
Chou RRSP Fund 36.36% 22
HOTCHKIS & WILEY 33.33% 21

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Why do some of the money managers not have performance returns for 5, 10,and since inceptions intervalsWholesale Snapback Hats?
Caramartin
ReplyCaramartin - 3 months ago
How can we guess the trends for the future. It's the previous data who help us to make a judgment. Increment in the stock shares never means that company is also going to perform well in the next year. so always be patient while looking to make an investment. Hotel industry is one off the hot cake for the investors. Increment in employment shows that it's growing with passage of time.
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Goforit
ReplyGoforit - 8 months ago
These performance numbers may be misleading and of limited use. It looks as if you may be comparing Guru performances over different periods. For example your data for Seth Klarman (Trades, Portfolio) only covers 1992 through 2001 (What happened to the last 13 years - did he die?). On the other hand, Bruce Berkowitz (Trades, Portfolio) data is from 2000 through 2013. Does this mean, for example, that for the 5 year performance column in the first table, you are comparing the Klarman returns from 1992 through 1996 with those of Berkowitz from 2000 through 2004? Please tell me this is not the case, since that does not make sense to me.
Reg Soule
ReplyReg Soule - 11 months ago
To keep my question simple and brief what do the funds listed here as h,m,I,f mean?
UVInvestors
ReplyUVInvestors - 1 year ago
brilliant idea for selecting funds, by asset class, for an asset allocation strategy!
Este123
ReplyEste123 - 1 year ago
Thanks!
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 1 year ago
fixed.
Este123
ReplyEste123 - 1 year ago
Hi, Any idea when Score Board of Gurus will get fixed? Thanks
Yoramhtm
ReplyYoramhtm - 1 year ago
Score Board of Gurus doesn't work???
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 1 year ago
We have the cash position of a few gurus. They are in the GuruFolio PDF report.

thanks!
Ilanm
ReplyIlanm - 1 year ago
Hi
Where can i find how much cash each furu hold?

tnx

Ilan
Zepolinvestmentslp@gmail.com
ReplyZepolinvestmentslp@gmail.com - 2 years ago
Please add the Dow, Nasdaq and S&P500 to this list, thank you!
Waterats
ReplyWaterats - 3 years ago
Why do some of the money managers not have performance returns for 5, 10,and since inceptions intervals....??? thanks
Paleface
ReplyPaleface - 3 years ago
For our convenience, awe and amusement, how about adding Mr. Dow, Mr. Russell and Mr. Nasdaq to the scoreboard? Thank you.
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 4 years ago
The numbers are being updated for 2009, not finished yet.

Benethridge
ReplyBenethridge - 4 years ago
I question all of them. None of them look correct to me.

Gurufocus, where are you getting your data for the 10 Year and Since Inception columns?

Ben
Waterats
ReplyWaterats - 4 years ago
HEY DR.

I see you have added alot of new GURU NAMES to your website. Are you planning on puting them on the "scoreboard" so we can easily see their performance over the time periods...LOVE YOUR WEBSITE.

ROBERT BAUMANN
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 5 years ago
We have just updated the performance data of mutual fund managers we tracked for the period ended Dec. 31, 2008. We will work on the hedge fund gurus.

For hedge funds, sometimes we do not have the detailed data. If anyone can help, please contact us.
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 5 years ago
This page will be updated.
Waterats
ReplyWaterats - 5 years ago
When do the Guru's 5 and 10 year % gains get recalculated by either them or Gurufocus.com. I question and am very doubtful Bruce Sherman's % rate is correct. It seems like they have never changed and continue year after year to be the same. He had a terrible last 12 to 18 months?


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