The Score Board of Gurus

These are the performance numbers for the stocks Gurus bought and the 5-year, 10-year performance numbers of their flagship funds. To be more objective, we also display the annualized performance numbers over complete market cycles and the return of rolling 5-year periods. Warren Buffett uses the annual returns of rolling 5-year period to measure his own performances. Click here.

ScoreboardStock Picks - 6 MonthsStock Picks - 12 MonthsPerformancesTurnover (%)
Name # of Stocks Bought The Average Gain* (%) # of Stocks Bought Average Return* (%) 5-year (%) 10-year (%) Since Inception (%) Period Tracked Fund tracked (Q/Q)
Wilbur Ross 321.33618.51
Private Capital 1916.584613.7820.16.315.34
Glenn Greenberg 1216.332226.6415
Jeff Ubben 17162816.8214
Lou Simpson 1315.852916.212
David Swensen 715178.5363
Bill Ackman 814.881529.336.22008 - 2010Pershing Square LP fund20
Julian Robertson 44139515.6430
Ken Heebner 6212.8513513.466.67.4131998 - 2013CGM Focus Fund29
Vanguard Health Care Fund 3112.587323.8420.212.717.61985 - 2013Vanguard Healthcare Fund5
Mohnish Pabrai 412.2578.5737
Steve Mandel 4811.5410411.2826
John Paulson 2610.5615.214.17.911.71994 - 2011Advantage Fund11
PRIMECAP Management 749.761689.719.610.313.71985 - 2013Vanguard Primcap Fund3
Robert Olstein 909.2718110.06155.811.11996 - 2013Olstein All Cap Value Fund16
Andreas Halvorsen 909.216913.1222.2629
Chuck Akre 138.623314.64211.212.71989 - 2011Akre Capital Private Asset Man3
Daniel Loeb 437.849811.722.814.720.41995 - 2013Master Fund40
Mario Cibelli 187.72419.5913
John Hussman 1117.452198.41-6.1-2.32.92000 - 2013Hussman Strategic Growth Fund24
Martin Whitman 157.27273.897.54.861991 - 2013Third Avenue Value Fund16
Tom Gayner 377.198611.760.769.81996 - 2011Markel Corp. Equity Portfolio3
Joel Greenblatt 9597.0420319.7418.62011 - 2013U.S. Value 1000 Fund42
David Tepper 126.55514.3623.330.529.21993 - 2010Appaloosa Investment LP I1
Mario Gabelli 2446.475878.9919.79.812.61987 - 2013Asset Fund Class AAA3
Jean-Marie Eveillard 1376.283066.189.49.413.71980 - 2013First Eagle Global Fund10
George Soros 18266102.520
Bill Gates 467-3.574
Lee Ainslie 47610310.4411.22010 - 2010Maverick Fund26
Bruce Berkowitz 235.96345.0316.81112.82000 - 2013Fairholme Fund4
Robert Bruce 115.91173.8214.28.412.61984 - 2013Bruce Fund4
Ron Baron 1795.683582.9618.69.513.21992 - 2013Baron Partners Fund3
David Winters 75.4392.338.56.62006 - 2013Wintergreen Fund3
Ken Fisher 1815.293917.267.74.77.11997 - 2013Purisima Total Return (PURIX)6
Richard Perry 155.13407.431.62008 - 2010Perry Capital16
Dodge & Cox 825.111106.7415.67.113.51980 - 2013Dodge & Cox Stock FUND7
Ray Dalio 4314.997427.377
David Abrams 144.71249.138
Tweedy Browne 34.6741.759.95.95.31994 - 2013Tweedy Browne Value Fund1
John Griffin 244.67476.2113
Third Avenue Management 624.551122.0414.66.761991 - 2013Third Avenue Value Fund9
Scott Black 594.311036.1318
Ronald Muhlenkamp 284.29461.22154.210.31989 - 2013Muhlenkamp  Fund9
Seth Klarman 244.294423.6613.112.81992 - 2001Baupost Fund19
Donald Yacktman 164.25251.9222.410.210.91993 - 2013The Yacktman Fund2
Yacktman Focused Fund 94.22221.7322.410.59.71997 - 2013Yacktman Focused Fund3
Bill Nygren 393.9815.9816.28.812.21992 - 2013Oakmark Fund8
John Keeley 1043.262290.2214.37.881994 - 2013Small Cap Value Fund8
Richard Pzena 583.171557.068
David Einhorn 433.09733.799.6109.52004 - 2013Greenlight Re28
Carl Icahn 122.75233.9126.616.12
Robert Karr 72.71125.9222.1911
Edward Lampert 32.677-15.4314
Yacktman Fund 72.57170.1222.410.210.61992 - 2013Yacktman Fund2
Warren Buffett 92.56227.3611.610.1191980 - 2012Berkshire Hathaway Book Value3
Mason Hawkins 321.84462.8313.15.812.21988 - 2013Longleaf Partners Fund16
Whitney Tilson 141.43277.932010 - 2011T2 Hedge Fund27
HOTCHKIS & WILEY 841.072116.8416.75.310.31988 - 2013Large Cap Value Fund9
Mariko Gordon 341.0392-0.324.112.613.81995 - 2012Small-Cap Composite - Daruma9
John Burbank 2350.864963.7626
Ruane Cunniff 420.83691.6417.89.214.31980 - 2013Sequoia Fund1
Richard Snow 1230.48233-1.0120.27.514.41992 - 2012All Cap Equity Composite16
Meridian Funds 000014.27.714.21995 - 2013Meridian Value Fund13
Mark Hillman 000019.78.110.81999 - 2012Focused Advantage Equity Compo11
Charlie Munger 00000
00000
David Dreman 212-0.025981.79-4.22004 - 2011Large Cap Fund ¨C Institution9
Wallace Weitz 40-0.53710.0816.86.812.71984 - 2013Weitz Partners Fund16
John Rogers 97-0.781982.71268.211.81987 - 2013Ariel Fund7
Chris Davis 69-1.121212.8312.25.511.41992 - 2013Davis Financial Fund6
Frank Sands 20-1.15463.8731.411.712.31992 - 2013Select Growth Portfolio7
Brian Rogers 22-1.41343.4713.36.810.91986 - 2013T. Rowe Price Equity Income Fu3
James Barrow 33-1.67902.5121.87.87.11997 - 2013Vanguard Selected Value Fund3
NWQ Managers 135-1.69233-0.2114.88.17.91997 - 2013Nuveen Multi-Manager Large-Cap11
Charles Brandes 74-1.84154-1.2516.22.77.91993 - 2013U. S. Value Equity9
Irving Kahn 6-3309.571
Michael Price 41-3.7863-4.199
Arnold Schneider 50-3.8296-3.729.73.712.61999 - 2013Schneider Small Cap Value Fund15
Ian Cumming 3-6.675-2713.318.51980 - 2011Leucadia Corp. Book Value11
Leon Cooperman 94-8.21163-8.6817
Arnold Van Den Berg 36-10.1785-15.6413.85.211.71980 - 2013CM Value I Composite13
T Boone Pickens 38-10.8768-18.3523
FPA Capital Fund 22-11.6840-11.73218.814.61984 - 2013FPA Capital Fund13
Donald Smith 27-15.5253-12.777
Prem Watsa 14-17.7923-9.436.8822.41986 - 2012Fairfax Per Share Book Value5
*The performance data are the average performances of the stocks Gurus purchased. They are not weighted, and do not include the stocks they kept unchanged in number of shares owned. The data are different from the performances of their complete portfolios
**Portfolio Performances are calculated based on the equity holding as of the latest reported quarterly portfolio, assuming no buys/sells since. ***Turnover is defined as the impact to portfolio caused by all the purchases. This is a Quarter-to-Quarter number

A Better Way to Measure Performances

We believe that the performance over fixed time periods, like the latest 3-year, 5-year and 10-year, might be misleading since a single bad year performance would ruin all. Therefore, we believe the best way to measure funds’ performance is to check the performance number over complete market cycles.

According to the annual returns of S&P 500 from 1999 to 2012, we think market peaks appeared at 1999, 2007 and 2012, while market troughs appear at 2002 and 2008. Based on this, we research all the funds’ performance from peak to peak (1999 to 2007, 2007 to 2012, and 1999 to 2012) years and trough to trough years (2002 to 2008).

The results are as follows (we ignore the funds which lack at least two years of data in a complete economic cycle):

Table 1: Peak to Peak_1999-2007 Annual Return
Guru Name Return Fund Type
David Tepper 30.66% h
Ken Heebner 28.90% m
Daniel Loeb 21.30% h
Arnold Schneider 19.78% m
Mawer New Canada Fund 19.25% f
Robert Bruce 18.74% m
John Buckingham 17.68% m
John Paulson 17.31% h
Bruce Berkowitz 17.11% m
Fairholme Fund 17.11% f
Jean-Marie Eveillard 16.49% m
Meridian Funds 15.80% m
Signature Select Canadian Fund 15.59% f
Murray Stahl 15.29% m
Arnold Van Den Berg 14.54% f
Mark Hillman 14.43% m
Chuck Royce 13.92% m
Chuck Akre 13.28% m
John Keeley 13.22% m
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 13.03% f
Westport Asset Management 12.91% m
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 12.62% f
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 12.51% f
Richard Snow 12.50% m
Manning & Napier Advisors, Inc 12.39% h
Robert Rodriguez 12.15% f
Dodge & Cox 12.12% m
Edward Owens 11.33% f
Martin Whitman 11.23% f
Third Avenue Management 11.23% m
Ron Baron 10.96% m
Steven Romick 10.90% f
Ian Cumming 10.77% i
Robert Olstein 10.60% m
Chou RRSP Fund 10.43% f
John Hussman 10.41% m
Bill Frels 10.14% m
Mario Gabelli 9.86% m
Ronald Muhlenkamp 9.62% m
Tom Gayner 9.59% i
Mason Hawkins 9.47% m
Tom Russo 9.44% h
John Rogers 9.41% m
Donald Yacktman 9.00% m
PRIMECAP Management 8.80% m
Francis Chou 8.69% m
Warren Buffett 8.39% i
Jeff Auxier 8.32% m
Prem Watsa 8.09% i
HOTCHKIS & WILEY 8.05% m
Brian Rogers 7.56% f
Ken Fisher 7.51% m
Wallace Weitz 7.50% m
David Rolfe 7.45% m
NWQ Managers 6.81% m
Chris Davis 6.73% m
Charles Brandes 6.50% m
Jeremy Grantham 6.29% m
James Barrow 6.05% m
Ruane Cunniff 5.88% m
RS Investment Management 5.65% m
Bill Nygren 5.33% f
Tweedy Browne 4.61% m
S&P 500 3.78%
 
Table 2: Peak to Peak_2007-2012 Annual Return
Guru Name Return Fund Type
Prem Watsa 19.73% i
David Rolfe 9.21% m
Daniel Loeb 8.84% h
Donald Yacktman 8.61% m
Warren Buffett 8.43% i
Frank Sands 8.28% m
Mawer New Canada Fund 7.98% f
Zeke Ashton 7.90% h
Chuck Royce 7.05% m
Ian Cumming 6.99% i
Jean-Marie Eveillard 6.85% m
Westport Asset Management 6.49% m
Ruane Cunniff 6.12% m
Edward Owens 5.80% f
David Einhorn 5.76% h
Steven Romick 5.61% f
Robert Rodriguez 5.43% f
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 4.81% f
Bill Frels 4.80% m
Robert Bruce 4.58% m
Mario Gabelli 4.51% m
Bill Nygren 4.46% f
PRIMECAP Management 4.40% m
David Winters 4.25% m
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 4.23% f
John Paulson 4.11% h
Bruce Berkowitz 3.99% m
Fairholme Fund 3.99% f
Jeff Auxier 3.90% m
Tom Russo 3.77% h
James Barrow 3.33% m
Tweedy Browne 3.33% m
Meridian Funds 3.17% m
RS Investment Management 3.05% m
Diamond Hill Capital 2.91% m
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 2.75% f
Wallace Weitz 2.51% m
S&P 500 2.21%
John Keeley 2.03% m
Chuck Akre 2.02% m
Manning & Napier Advisors, Inc 1.89% h
Brian Rogers 1.87% f
John Rogers 1.86% m
Ron Baron 1.58% m
Jeremy Grantham 1.30% m
NWQ Managers 1.23% m
Signature Select Canadian Fund 1.05% f
John Buckingham 0.84% m
Tom Gayner 0.71% i
Chou RRSP Fund 0.69% f
Francis Chou 0.58% m
Arnold Van Den Berg 0.29% f
Ken Heebner 0.23% m
Mason Hawkins 0.14% m
Dodge & Cox -0.17% m
Ken Fisher -0.31% m
Richard Snow -0.54% m
Mark Hillman -0.72% m
Martin Whitman -0.73% f
Third Avenue Management -0.77% m
Robert Olstein -0.80% m
Arnold Schneider -1.22% m
Murray Stahl -1.45% m
Chris Davis -1.76% m
HOTCHKIS & WILEY -2.29% m
John Hussman -2.64% m
Ronald Muhlenkamp -3.54% m
Charles Brandes -5.92% m
 
Table 3: Peak to Peak_1999-2012 Annual Return
Guru Name Return Fund Type
Daniel Loeb 16.06% h
Mawer New Canada Fund 14.46% f
Robert Bruce 14.27% m
Arnold Schneider 13.22% m
Ken Heebner 13.00% m
Jean-Marie Eveillard 12.73% m
Bruce Berkowitz 11.21% m
John Buckingham 11.11% m
Chuck Royce 11.01% m
Meridian Funds 10.78% m
Fairholme Fund 10.37% f
Robert Rodriguez 10.15% f
Westport Asset Management 10.05% m
Signature Select Canadian Fund 10.02% f
John Paulson 9.85% h
Arnold Van Den Berg 9.69% f
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 9.68% f
Prem Watsa 9.46% i
Edward Owens 9.43% f
Chuck Akre 9.32% m
Donald Yacktman 9.24% m
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 9.21% f
Mark Hillman 8.91% m
Steven Romick 8.89% f
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 8.78% f
John Keeley 8.70% m
Manning & Napier Advisors, Inc 8.38% h
Warren Buffett 8.22% i
Bill Frels 8.20% m
Richard Snow 7.75% m
David Rolfe 7.67% m
Chou RRSP Fund 7.65% f
Dodge & Cox 7.54% m
Ian Cumming 7.41% i
Mario Gabelli 7.40% m
Tom Russo 7.35% h
Murray Stahl 6.95% m
John Rogers 6.92% m
Tom Gayner 6.87% i
Ron Baron 6.81% m
PRIMECAP Management 6.71% m
Robert Olstein 6.59% m
Francis Chou 6.58% m
Wallace Weitz 6.55% m
Jeff Auxier 6.45% m
Martin Whitman 6.32% f
Third Avenue Management 6.30% m
Mason Hawkins 6.09% m
Ruane Cunniff 5.81% m
Bill Nygren 5.62% f
Brian Rogers 5.39% f
James Barrow 5.33% m
RS Investment Management 5.23% m
Ronald Muhlenkamp 5.22% m
HOTCHKIS & WILEY 4.90% m
Jeremy Grantham 4.76% m
John Hussman 4.65% m
NWQ Managers 4.38% m
Tweedy Browne 4.35% m
Chris Davis 3.89% m
Ken Fisher 3.75% m
S&P 500 2.97%
Charles Brandes 2.65% m
 
Table 4: Trough to Trough_2002-2008 Annual Return
Guru Name Return Fund Type
David Tepper 17.16% h
John Paulson 15.90% h
Robert Bruce 14.02% m
Prem Watsa 13.00% i
Jean-Marie Eveillard 11.61% m
Ken Heebner 10.92% m
Mawer New Canada Fund 10.20% f
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 10.15% f
Daniel Loeb 9.37% h
Warren Buffett 9.26% i
Chuck Royce 7.12% m
Bruce Berkowitz 6.93% m
Fairholme Fund 6.93% f
Chuck Akre 6.79% m
Ian Cumming 6.51% i
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 6.40% f
Diamond Hill Capital 6.29% m
Steven Romick 6.21% f
John Hussman 6.02% m
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 5.69% f
Signature Select Canadian Fund 5.45% f
John Keeley 5.37% m
Donald Yacktman 5.20% m
Sarah Ketterer 4.98% m
Tom Russo 4.51% h
Edward Owens 4.26% f
Arnold Schneider 4.04% m
Ron Baron 3.81% m
Westport Asset Management 3.34% m
Francis Chou 3.33% m
Jeff Auxier 2.88% m
Murray Stahl 2.69% m
Meridian Funds 2.68% m
Robert Rodriguez 2.60% f
Bill Frels 2.41% m
Mario Gabelli 2.21% m
Martin Whitman 2.04% f
Third Avenue Management 2.04% m
Mark Hillman 1.95% m
Tom Gayner 1.83% i
PRIMECAP Management 1.75% m
Chou RRSP Fund 1.45% f
Ruane Cunniff 1.40% m
John Buckingham 1.30% m
Arnold Van Den Berg 1.12% f
Manning & Napier Advisors, Inc 0.63% h
Dodge & Cox 0.54% m
Brian Rogers 0.53% f
Tweedy Browne -0.04% m
Richard Snow -0.50% m
NWQ Managers -0.59% m
James Barrow -0.65% m
Jeremy Grantham -0.83% m
HOTCHKIS & WILEY -1.08% m
Ken Fisher -1.28% m
David Rolfe -1.35% m
Bill Nygren -1.37% f
S&P 500 -1.38%
Ronald Muhlenkamp -1.61% m
RS Investment Management -1.92% m
John Rogers -2.48% m
Chris Davis -2.78% m
Mason Hawkins -2.79% m
Wallace Weitz -2.95% m
Robert Olstein -3.50% m
Frank Sands -4.49% m
Charles Brandes -7.56% m

In Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRK.A)(BRK.B)’s annual report of 2012, Warren Buffett mentioned this methodology. We first calculate the five-year rolling annualized returns for each fund from their inception date to today, then compare them with five-year rolling annualized returns of the S&P 500, and finally we calculate the percentage of years when each fund outperformed the market. We ignore those funds which had less than eight five-year rolling returns from 1980 or their inception date, whichever comes first, to 2012.

The results are as follows:

Table 5: Percentage of Years When Guru Outperformed the Market (Five-Year Rolling Basis)
Guru Name Percentage Number of Data
Warren Buffett 100.00% 29
Daniel Loeb 100.00% 14
Westport Asset Management 100.00% 11
Diamond Hill Capital 100.00% 8
CI Can-Am Small Cap Fund 100.00% 11
Edward Owens 95.83% 24
Meridian Funds 92.86% 14
David Tepper 92.86% 14
Tom Gayner 91.67% 12
Bruce Berkowitz 88.89% 9
Jeff Auxier 88.89% 9
Fairholme Fund 88.89% 9
Prem Watsa 86.36% 22
Ruane Cunniff 86.21% 29
Chuck Akre 84.21% 19
NWQ Managers 83.33% 12
Tom Russo 83.33% 24
PRIMECAP Management 83.33% 24
Ken Heebner 81.82% 11
Manning & Napier Advisors Inc. 80.00% 10
Signature Select Canadian Fund 80.00% 10
Ian Cumming 78.57% 28
John Paulson 78.57% 14
Robert Rodriguez 76.00% 25
Ken Fisher 75.00% 12
Frank Sands 75.00% 8
David Rolfe 75.00% 16
Mawer New Canada Fund 75.00% 20
Steven Romick 73.33% 15
Mario Gabelli 72.73% 22
Leith Wheeler Canadian Equity 71.43% 14
Ron Baron 70.59% 17
Chuck Royce 70.59% 17
Murray Stahl 69.23% 13
James Barrow 66.67% 12
Jean-Marie Eveillard 65.52% 29
Bill Frels 65.52% 29
Bill Nygren 64.71% 17
Richard Snow 64.71% 17
Chris Davis 64.71% 17
Mawer Canadian Equity Fund 64.71% 17
Tweedy Browne 64.29% 14
Wallace Weitz 64.00% 25
Donald Yacktman 62.50% 16
RS Investment Management 61.54% 13
Brian Rogers 60.87% 23
Ronald Muhlenkamp 60.00% 20
John Keeley 60.00% 15
Arnold Schneider 60.00% 10
Mark Hillman 60.00% 10
Francis Chou 59.09% 22
Dodge & Cox 58.62% 29
Mason Hawkins 57.14% 21
John Hussman 55.56% 9
Robert Olstein 53.85% 13
John Buckingham 50.00% 10
Robert Bruce 48.00% 25
John Rogers 45.45% 22
Martin Whitman 44.44% 18
Third Avenue Management 44.44% 18
Jeremy Grantham 44.44% 9
Arnold Van Den Berg 41.38% 29
Charles Brandes 37.50% 16
Chou RRSP Fund 36.36% 22
HOTCHKIS & WILEY 33.33% 21

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User Comments

Jackbane
ReplyJackbane - 7 minutes ago
where is mark mobius in here
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Why do some of the money managers not have performance returns for 5, 10,and since inceptions intervalsWholesale Snapback Hats?
Caramartin
ReplyCaramartin - 6 months ago
How can we guess the trends for the future. It's the previous data who help us to make a judgment. Increment in the stock shares never means that company is also going to perform well in the next year. so always be patient while looking to make an investment. Hotel industry is one off the hot cake for the investors. Increment in employment shows that it's growing with passage of time.
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Goforit
ReplyGoforit - 11 months ago
These performance numbers may be misleading and of limited use. It looks as if you may be comparing Guru performances over different periods. For example your data for Seth Klarman (Trades, Portfolio) only covers 1992 through 2001 (What happened to the last 13 years - did he die?). On the other hand, Bruce Berkowitz (Trades, Portfolio) data is from 2000 through 2013. Does this mean, for example, that for the 5 year performance column in the first table, you are comparing the Klarman returns from 1992 through 1996 with those of Berkowitz from 2000 through 2004? Please tell me this is not the case, since that does not make sense to me.
Reg Soule
ReplyReg Soule - 1 year ago
To keep my question simple and brief what do the funds listed here as h,m,I,f mean?
UVInvestors
ReplyUVInvestors - 1 year ago
brilliant idea for selecting funds, by asset class, for an asset allocation strategy!
Este123
ReplyEste123 - 1 year ago
Thanks!
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 1 year ago
fixed.
Este123
ReplyEste123 - 1 year ago
Hi, Any idea when Score Board of Gurus will get fixed? Thanks
Yoramhtm
ReplyYoramhtm - 2 years ago
Score Board of Gurus doesn't work???
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 2 years ago
We have the cash position of a few gurus. They are in the GuruFolio PDF report.

thanks!
Ilanm
ReplyIlanm - 2 years ago
Hi
Where can i find how much cash each furu hold?

tnx

Ilan
Zepolinvestmentslp@gmail.com
ReplyZepolinvestmentslp@gmail.com - 2 years ago
Please add the Dow, Nasdaq and S&P500 to this list, thank you!
Waterats
ReplyWaterats - 3 years ago
Why do some of the money managers not have performance returns for 5, 10,and since inceptions intervals....??? thanks
Paleface
ReplyPaleface - 3 years ago
For our convenience, awe and amusement, how about adding Mr. Dow, Mr. Russell and Mr. Nasdaq to the scoreboard? Thank you.
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 5 years ago
The numbers are being updated for 2009, not finished yet.

Benethridge
ReplyBenethridge - 5 years ago
I question all of them. None of them look correct to me.

Gurufocus, where are you getting your data for the 10 Year and Since Inception columns?

Ben
Waterats
ReplyWaterats - 5 years ago
HEY DR.

I see you have added alot of new GURU NAMES to your website. Are you planning on puting them on the "scoreboard" so we can easily see their performance over the time periods...LOVE YOUR WEBSITE.

ROBERT BAUMANN
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 5 years ago
We have just updated the performance data of mutual fund managers we tracked for the period ended Dec. 31, 2008. We will work on the hedge fund gurus.

For hedge funds, sometimes we do not have the detailed data. If anyone can help, please contact us.
Gurufocus
ReplyGurufocus - 5 years ago
This page will be updated.
Waterats
ReplyWaterats - 5 years ago
When do the Guru's 5 and 10 year % gains get recalculated by either them or Gurufocus.com. I question and am very doubtful Bruce Sherman's % rate is correct. It seems like they have never changed and continue year after year to be the same. He had a terrible last 12 to 18 months?


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